wheres the love yall? (questions for christians)
gods love is such a goofball notion. really...honestly...think about it. if you were a parent and you punished your children the way that god wants to punish you for disobeying his ten little rules... you would have child services beating down your door and i would be watching your whole horrible story on nightline. if your kid got caught stealing would you throw them in the oven as if they were hansel and grettel? would that be showing your love? could you bring yourself to even consider throwing your beloved baby into a bonfire? if your parent tried to do that to you or even seriously threatened you with it for not following their rules wouldnt you tell them to go fuck themselves? or would you sit back in awe and tell other people that they arent as lucky as you since they dont have parents who want to punish and murder them so horrifically because they think about the hot cashier at the grocery store while masturbating? the love i have for my daughter is so completly unquestionably unconditional she couldnt possibly shake it by doing anything so begnign. wouldnt/dont you feel the same way about your children? why would you ever want to glorify someone who didnt? what would you do to a person who harmed your kid? would you introduce your children to an abuser and leave them in their care knowing the horrible harm that could come to them? why would you ever possibly want to introduce them to your god?
posted by veganerd at 12:25 PM
18 Comments:
You don't nderstand Gods wonderful gift of eternal life in heaven. This is what He really wants for us because he loves us. I will be praying for your soul.
yeah you know what that sounds like? a battered wife making excuses for her dickfaced husband who likes to beat the shit out of her because she didnt clean the house well enough. "he really didnt mean to give me a black eye and bruise my ribs...i shouldnt have upset him. he just does it because he love me."
sound familiar? fuck you.
the love i have for my daughter is so completly unquestionably unconditional she couldnt possibly shake it by doing anything so begnign.
Just a couple points...
First: I have two kids who I love deeply. As you note, nothing they do will ever change that love.
Does that mean I don't get crazy angry with them and what they do from time to time? I don't know how old your daughter is, but if you think back to your teenage years (which I gather aren't too far behind you) you'll remember a time or two that you violated your parent's commands and really teed them off.
Why do we forgive and continue to love our children? In part we do it because we recognize that we are frail and faulty ourselves ("Heh, when I was your age son..."). The bigger reason is that love consists of grace and forgiveness.
God has offered the same to us through faith in Christ... The question is will be embrace that free gift or continue to run away from God.
I will continue to love my daughter even when she runs away and shacks up in a crackhouse somewhere... But I cannot rescue her from the penalty of her actions if she will not run to me instead of rebel against me.
If you are thinking like a parent, I think you've taken your first step to understanding God. You just need to approach Him without the unfair bias that you've set up.
Second: You use the term 'bednign' (sic) to describe sin. The problem is that sin isn't like that at all.
If you lived in a culture where everyone was caucasian, you'd come to think that's normal. You'd be shocked when you encoutered the first Hispanic or African of your life. They'd seem shockingly different.
In the same way, we've come to accept sin as 'normal' and 'benign' because that's how wicked we are and how wicked the world around us is.
In reality, those 'minor sins' are anything but... They're like the hole in a blow-up kiddie pool that we've patched over with duct tape. We can convince ourselves we're ok, perhaps even giving the appearance of wholeness through tape and constant refilling.
In reality, we're nothing but 'broken cisterns that can hold no water' (Jer 2:13).
why would you ever possibly want to introduce them to your god?
Because we, like your parenting example above, have a Great Father who is waiting for us to run to him... Because there is great grace made available that cancels the debt of sin that you and I owe. We can have freedom, if we seek it In Christ and grab hold of it.
Or we can bear the penalty that we rightly deserve for effectively flipping off God time and time again by our own actions.
"Does that mean I don't get crazy angry with them and what they do from time to time?"
of course parents get angry with their kids. do they murder or torture them for it forever and ever? dont you get it? the god you choose to worship is a horrible being. in the bible he directly kills 371,186 people. not including all the untold numbers of people that died in the supposed flood. he then goes on to order the death of 1,862,265 people. all within the bible you love so much.
guess who else in the bible liked to order the murder of people. jesus. looks like he learned a thing or two from his old man.
luke 19:27 "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
dont believe in my rule? my goons will bash your head in with a big fuckin rock! doesnt that sound a bit too much like saddam hussein?
and dont forget that your virgin children are fair game within the bible too. theyre good for raping as your reward for killing whole cities of people that god didnt like. and if you decide to rape your neighbors hot teenage daughter before god tells you to? well then you gotta pay her dad fifty bucks and then marry her. yeah thats right the rape victim gets to relive that experience every day for the rest of her life because she cant divorce him. ever. how sweet. that little gem is found in deuteronomy 22:28-29. gods law rules!! and this certainly isnt an isolated incident. dont belive me? go ahead and read the following books of the bible....
judges, numbers, deuteronomy, exodus, zechariah
but those are just the parts that good christians like to gloss over because they make god sound kinda evil. have you had a glimpse of why i have such contempt for religion?
shall i continue?
I can't wait for heavydluxe to respond. It's always hilarious when people take some parts of the bible quite literally, then other parts are ignored because they "mean something else, and aren't meant to be taken literally."
So which is it? Are we supposed to interpret the bible literally or not? My single neighbor can't wait to find out. There's a young, hot teenager he likes and $50 burning a hole in his pocket.
My other neighbor is gay. I can't wait to remind him of how much Christians condemn him, yet claim to love him and pray for him at the same time. Oh, wait! The PRIDE festival will be here in a few weeks. I better hurry and get the message out, before God strikes a terrible wrath on our city for holding such an event.
I can't wait for heavydluxe to respond.
Far be it from me to disappoint, then... :-)
I'm home babysitting the two kids mentioned above because my wife is racing to visit her failing grandfather... So this 'laughable reply' will have to broken into parts.
Let me lop off the first error in your comment, if I may:
guess who else in the bible liked to order the murder of people. jesus. looks like he learned a thing or two from his old man. [You go on to quote Luke 19:27]
You know, I can honestly say that's the first time someone has made that case. Usually people are trying to identify Jesus as some peace-loving hippie...
Again, a couple points:
First: If you'd go back up a little bit in the text and re-read the passage in context, you'd note that this is a parable (illustrative story) that Jesus is telling.
If this is a 'murder order' from Jesus, then I'm telling my son to run into burning buildings because we read about firemen at bedtime.
It's a story, not a list of orders.
Second: It is absolutely true that the Master (nobleman) in the story is representative of God/Christ and the unfaithful servants represent those who don't obey the Master.
In that regard, you're right. God does 'sentence' those who don't steward His resources well... And that penalty is harsh. I don't feel the need to retreat from that fact in the slighest! In fact, that's the very reason that I'm here beating my head against a brick wall (figuratively, of course - I wouldn't want you take that too literally a la Luke 19) to defend the Gospel I believe.
I believe with all my heart and mind that God is real and that the Bible is the accurate reflection of His discourse with man. As a result, we know - just like Luke 19 tells us - that the King is going to return and we'll all have to give an account for what we've done while He's been away. (see Revelation 19:11-21)
We can either 'do it our own way' and face the penalty, or put our faith in Christ, live for/through Him, and find eternal life. He died to pay that 'death sentence' for us. I pray that God will press that into your mind and heart.
I'll come back later and deal with your Old Testament issues... For now, I have a diaper to change.
Heavydluxe, how can you explain the disparity between Christians taking the bible literally in some parts, claiming it to be god's word, then taking other parts and saying, "But this part here, that's figurative. Don't take this part literally" ?
"It's a story, not a list of orders."
for once we totally agree. its a story and it starts with genesis and ends with revelations. its not a list of orders.
Not Hip,
how can you explain the disparity between Christians taking the bible literally in some parts... then taking other parts and saying ['this part isn't literal']
If I tell you someone was 'hopping mad', do you take me literal and picture someone hopping up and down? Is that different than 'leaping mad' to you?
I believe the Bible is *absolutely* God's Word to us and it should be taken to be serious and authoritative.
However, there is no other book, outside of a home repair manual, that anyone takes (or is intended to take) absolutely literally.
Let me give you an example: In Matthew 23, Jesus is railing against the Pharisees... In verse 24, he calls them "blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!"
WHOA!!! I wish I could've been there to see that! I've never seen anyone swallow a camel, much less crap gnats! Unreal.
Obviously, this is not a statement to be taken literally. I don't think the Pharisees were blind, eating whole camels, or raising pests in their intestines.
However, the point that is being made (that legalism is dangerous and faulty) in that passage is absolutely true and I hold to it 'literally'.
The Bible is a record of human communication... What human communicator simply says 'do that, don't do this'?
The message of any text in the Bible is clear to anyone who can read... I take those meanings very seriously. Some are plain in form of commands/warnings, while others require you to read and think.
Vegan:
for once we totally agree.
No, we don't. The Bible is a story, but not in the sense of fiction. It's a record of a loving God and the people who consistently refused to honor/obey Him. It contains the commands which we have violated, the grace that gives us life and freedom, as well as the assurance that this veil will be stripped away someday.
It's a story, and we're all living it. Remember those 'choose your own' adventure books from when we were kids? You're choosing your ending right now.
Back to the original discourse:
in the bible [God] directly kills 371,186 people. [more stuff about death and killing]
Yes. These were people in whom "evey intention of the thoughts of [their] heart was only evil continually" (Gen 6:5).
Therein lies the problem. We are wicked, evil people - right down to the very core of who we are.
That's the whole message of the Bible... There is a Holy, Righteous God who we are rebelling against day and night. If God were truly 'mean' he'd strike down each and every one of us for our sins (and would be just in doing so). Instead, God has acted with grace "not desiring that any should perish".
Even though we are without merit, Christ died for the ungodly so God's just wrath against our sin could be vented and we could be spared.
Those people in the OT who God struck down had made their choice. Now you have a chance to make yours. I pray you'll choose faith in Christ. It is your, and my, only hope for eternity.
Bedtime for kiddos. Deut 22 'problem' next.
while i whole heartedly disagree with your choice to view the parts you wish as parables you still havent addressed the rapes. i cant possibly see how you can even begin to constrew those as parables. even if you could what kind of fucked up parable would that be?
"Yes. These were people in whom "evey intention of the thoughts of [their] heart was only evil continually" (Gen 6:5)"
we both know this isnt true. please tell me how truly wicked babies can be. the bible is full of god ordering babies to be killed.
"God has acted with grace "not desiring that any should perish".
again this is complete bullshit. he has it in for you from the get go. with the statement that you are a complete screw up and need to be punished by death for something that a supposed girl (eve) did a long
time ago. what kind of horrible idea is that? are you planning on breaking your grandkids and all their cousins fingers as punishment for your kids coloring on their walls? would that make a lick of sense? talk about vengence! but i will grant that god doesnt want you to break their fingers...he wants you to kill them. isaiah 14:21
[[I see you've commented again, Veg while I've been typing... I'm addressing the rapes now. I'll also formulate a response to this other comment of yours, and then I'm out.]]
All righty then... This'll be the last long post I make. I've got enough other things going on that I should give at least a little attention to.
If there's a way I can rebutt something briefly, I will.
Anyway, Vegan said:
that little gem is found in deuteronomy 22:28-29. gods law rules!! and this certainly isnt an isolated incident. dont belive me? go ahead and read the following books of the bible [long list blah blah]
I've read all those books, more than a couple times.
First starting with Deut 22:28-29, though!
“If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.
One problem is that the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, not English. So, careful translation is key... This is no different than if some poor undergrad was reading Homer in Greek and suddenly though Odesseus had found 'Herpes' instead of 'Harpies', or something like that.
In this case, it cannot be certain that vv.28-29 are talking about rape. Here comes the exegesis!
"seizes (taphas) her and lies shekab with her..."
These Hebrew words (transliterated taphas and shekab) are not clearly talking about rape. Instead, verse 25 of the same chapter uses the word for 'forces her' (chazaq). This is almost certainly rape.
So, what's going on? Let's look at the verses in context and pick it apart... Click here to see the verses in the NASB translation (which is hard to read, but the best word-for-word translation out there).
vv23-24: In this case, a betrothed woman sleeps with another man. They are both to be stoned because they committed adultery. How do we know it's adultery? Because they're in the city (amidst tons of people) and the woman didn't cry out for help.
vv25-27: Same situation, only this time out in the field. No one to hear the screams, so what happens? The man gets stoned and the woman goes free. Is it possible it wasn't rape (the woman lies)? Yeah, I suppose. But in the absence of information the man (guilty beyond doubt of one or two sins) bear the just penalty for his wrong action.
vv28-29: Now we're talking about someone who is a virgin, not betrothed for marriage. They have sex (again, no lingual assurance of rape here)... What happens? Having lost her virginity, it's not likely she'd ever find a husband to take care of her and she'd be an outcast. So, her lover is required to take her as his wife and TAKE CARE OF HER. He can't divorce her to get out of his obligation.
Kinda makes you think twice about sneaking off into the bushes for a quickie with that hot cashier, doesn't it Veg?
In summary: There is no clear reason to interpret the original Hebrew text in vv28-29 as referring to rape. Even if it does, the underlying issue is providing care for a young woman who, by virtue of the sexual encounter, is no longer desirable for a wife.
Just another word about taking things "literally", for a second. If we get ridiculously literal, we'd get all hung up on the 'fields' and 'city' stuff. The fact is, however, that the MEANING is clear - in a city cries for help can be expected to be heard, outside of the town not so much.
Like I said, that's prolly it for me, though I'll try to respond to something if you fire back.
i cant possibly see how you can even begin to constrew those as parables. even if you could what kind of fucked up parable would that be?
You're the one who's making a choice here... You cited Luke 19:27, right? Well, verse 9 just above it starts "And he [Jesus] began to tell the people this parable".
I'm not making an inference about what is a parable and what isn't. The speaker (Jesus) and the writer (Luke, in this case) clearly tell me when a parable starts.
It's also imporant to note that, culturally, teachers used parables all the time in their teaching. We still do today.
even if you could what kind of [crazy] parable would that be?
One that talks about wicked people who cheated their master and received punishment. I'm not saying it's nice, but it is what it is.
we both know this isnt true. please tell me how truly wicked babies can be. the bible is full of god ordering babies to be killed.
We are all sinful, and I believe from birth. We inherited Adam's sin and stand condemned in that... Check out this snippet from Romans 5.
And no parent can call their kids innocent after their more than a year old. We're born selfish, tempermental, willful.. After kids learn to say Mom/Dad, the next words are usually "MINE!" and "NO!". Sweet, yes. Innocent? No.
he has it in for you from the get go. with the statement that you are a complete screw up
This is getting ridiculous... I want you to just do one thing honestly, ok? Look around the world and tell me if you think people are noble and great...
Malcolm Muggeridge, who was way smarter than me, said that "The depravity of man is one of the most disputed doctrines, even though it is one of the most easily verified."
We are screw-ups... You, me, and everyone else. The question is are we going to do anything about it? Christ died so that we could be restored again (in small ways now, and completely in eternity) to fullness and fellowship with God.
but i will grant that god doesnt want you to break their fingers...he wants you to kill them. isaiah 14:21
Isaiah 14:21??
You know, a Bible search tool can be dangerous...
Isaiah 14:21 is talking about either a wicked earthly ruler who considered himself to be equal to God (as we people often do) *OR* it's referring to Satan's fall from heaven. Either way, any killing here is punishment on "children of evil/the devil" and is doled out by me but by God.
If you'd actually read and engage some of the texts you so readily throw out, you might start to see something different... Jesus died for sinful folks who were absolutely hostile towards God.
The great news is that we can escape the wrath that will come when the sins that haven't been punished already will finally get their due. All it takes is a heart that seeks truth and a little faith.
holy crap these posts are getting too long. while i appreciate your willingness to debate me im going to call it quits for today after this one in the interest of doing something else. im no longer bored at work. dont tell my boss i blog all day. haha
"You know, a Bible search tool can be dangerous..."
"if you'd actually read and engage some of the texts you so readily throw out, you might start to see something different."
i have. i was raised in a cult for 13 years. reading it is what changed my mind in the first place.
bible search tool? usually when posting a verse i leave my good books on the bookshelf and grab the bible. here is what isiah 14:20-21 says. "may the descendents of evildoers nevermore be named! prepare slaughter for his sons because of the guilt of their fathers."
oh one more thing...you said its not rape
"Because they're in the city (amidst tons of people) and the woman didn't cry out for help."
so what youre saying is that its not rape if the woman doesnt cry out for help? well then lets free all the people from prisons who used drugs to rape since the victim most certainly couldnt cry out. what about if the woman didnt have a voice? what if she was being choked? threatened with death if she screamed? i certainly hope you dont feel that way but i have reread your statement a few times and i cant see what else you could mean. maybe you want to rethink your stance on that one.
Well, this is the last one for me and then I'm done done. There's no reason to go round and round anymore...
here is what isiah 14:20-21 says. "may the descendents of evildoers nevermore be named! prepare slaughter for his sons because of the guilt of their fathers."
And, again, the passage is either referring to the 'sons' of the devil or the 'sons' of the wicked king (the same guy who in the first half of v20 is referred to as having "slain [his own] people").
what about if the woman didnt have a voice? what if she was being choked? threatened with death if she screamed?
And with that, I'm finished. You posed that v28-29 were demanding that a woman stay married to her rapist, I refute that, and you simply flip to another argument.
You're not being honest with your inquiry. You keep asking 'How do you explain' and don't really care about the explanation. You're only in it for the next dagger to throw out, and I am not here to play pin-cushion.
So, I'll leave with the only message I have: One day, we'll all close our eyes for the last time in this world. In that moment we'll come face to face with the truth of who Christ is, in all His glory.
Our conduct in this life will be judged and we'll face the final crossroad. Either our sins will be reckoned against our account and we'll receive the just punishment for our wrongdoings, or our sins will have been reckoned to Christ on the Cross and we'll enter the Kingdom of our Father.
I hope that you'll think long and hard about the truth, Veg. I'm sorry about your past experience in a cult - I have friends who've been down that road. But don't let the perversion that man brings to everything push you away from the truth. Seek Christ honestly and you'll Him running to meet you...
One final thing... You guys have inspired me.
I think I'm going to do a couple posts over on my blog about "taking the Bible 'literally'" and on some challenge verses (like the Deut 22 passage you offered up).
Any others I should consider?
i think you should write about genesis 1:1 through revelations 20-21
"And with that, I'm finished. You posed that v28-29 were demanding that a woman stay married to her rapist, I refute that, and you simply flip to another argument."
no i just disagree with your rationalizations and we would just keep goin round and round. further clarity on your explination.
"You're not being honest with your inquiry. You keep asking 'How do you explain' and don't really care about the explanation. You're only in it for the next dagger to throw out"
well appreciate that you feel my arguments are as sharp witted and dangerous as daggers. thanks for the debate.
well appreciate that you feel my arguments are as sharp witted and dangerous as daggers.
Not really. But good try.
Without God there is no morality.
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