Wednesday, February 01, 2006

debates are fun and im hilarious

what follows is a debate i had over email with a christian. it started on a messge board when among other things a person asked if ultra christians should be viewed as mature. my responses are in red and his are in white.


as far as viewing ultra christians mature, i dont. i feel that any religious person should be treated for the mental disorder they clearly have as they are clearly delusional people. after all if an adult firmly believed in the tooth fairy and and spent much of their time worshiping it with crazy rituals and used the tooth fairy as a justification to oppress others or to lead a country to war then they would be viewed as a wacko and be thrown in the looney bin. but for some illogical reason if a person says they believe instead in an invisible being in the sky that likes to punish others for not believing in him, they are somehow normal?

religions need to go.


I don't wish to hijack the thread, so my reply is private.
It seemed to me your comment showed a total lack of
understanding & a great deal of bigotry.

which comment are you speaking of? i dont feel that any of my views could be considered or viewd as bigotry. but i am always happy to enter into a discussion about them. i look forward to hearing back from you.


he then inserted first comment from me.



whats wrong with that? how does that make me a bigot? would you be saying that if i instead said that i feel that any person with schizophrenia or depression needs to be treated? i think that relegious people are very delusional. why does it bother you?


Sir, are you ignorant or simply hostile to religion?



well i think all sane people should be hostile towards religion. but why would you think i was ignorant? i would understand you thinking i was ignorant if i said i was relegious but i made it clear that i am not. do you disagree with me that its absurd to invent invisible beings with insecurity issues and a thirst for vengance to believe in? i get the feeling that you arent quite as athiest as i am. but its hard to tell what you are really thinking because you havent really answered any of my queries in this discussion.


Do you honestly think you faith in nothing is so superior to any and all other beliefs? jeremy. Do you not see how insulting that is to those who hold other beliefs? you have classed them all as insane & ignorant. That certainly fits the definition of bigotry. bigot - a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own

i never said that i lack faith in anything. i am overflowing with so much faith that it oozes out all over and if you came near me i fear you may slip on it. the difference between my faith and the faith in religious people is that i have faith in real things not imaginary things. for example......even though its currently dark outside my window at the moment i am quite faithful that the sun will be shining in the morning. i also have faith that if i were to stand up quickly then my shiny powerbook would fall to the floor. i also have a tremendous amount of faith that i wont be swept off to oz in the center of a tornado when i go to sleep tonight.

and regarding your definition of bigot then you would have to say that non racist people are bigots too. unless they tolerated racists. and i dont see how being an athiest is insulting to religious peoples. thats like saying that if you are not in a coma then you are being insulting to people who are in a coma.


You misread me, perhaps intentionally. I realize you have a great deal of faith in yourself. Just realize that there may be a great deal that is quite real & very much outside of your limited sight & insight. The definition I gave you was not mine. It is from a dictionary.


i also have faith in things outside of my limited sight. i belive that there are indeed things in the universe that i cant see...distant planets and stars. there are also things on my own body i cant see with my limited sight...not just the back of my head but also very tiny cells that you cant see without a microscope. i have faith that they are there because i have seen them using a microscope. i have faith that they are on yours too. see what religious people fail to realize is that when they make outrageous claims then they also need substantial proof. it works this way in everything. for instance if i said that i have an invisible dragon in my basement that craps gold and pisses out 100 dollar bills then you would certainly want proof before you even started to believe me wouldnt you? wouldnt you think i was crazy? would that make you a bigot? how would you prove me wrong? why is it that no christians belive it when a murder says that god told him or her to kill their victim? you cant prove that god didnt. if there really were the god from the bible then i would have to say that god may have told them to murder that person. the bible is full of stories like that. isnt that cool?


Your photographs are more impressive than your dialectic.
(he was speaking of the photos in my portfolio)


i appreciate your saying that. considering that my dialect is quite impressive then you must think i am quite an amazing photographer. i wouldnt go quite that far since i am a bit more humble about my photo skills. but if you want to hold that opnion that i am one of the most skilled photographers you have ever seen then by all means.......too bad you werent the juror in the last photo competition i entered, i would have been a shoo in to win. alas i am tired and must get to bed for the night. in all honestly i appreciate the conversation with you. i look forward to more healthy and spirited debates in the future. debating ones ideals is very important and people should be able to articulate what they believe in. i wish you did more of that in our conversation and perhaps the next time you will.

once again thank you for your outrageously amazing compliment about my photographs. i always thought i am better at being funny than taking photos. maybe in the future i will send some jokes your way.

good night


the next day,


Funny you should say that. I thought you had been sending jokes all along. If you had shown more respect I might have articulate some of my theological beliefs but I'm not inclined to throw pearls before swine.



nope ive been quite serious. and being vegan i dont wear pearls. i never understood the desire to pry open an animal in the hopes of finding a particualr waste product to wear around your neck. it would be much like me ripping into your intestines hoping to find a polyp in your colon and making it into jewlery. gross huh. i guess thats why you would be throwing them down in the first place. and why would you throw them in front of a pig anyway? and why would you call me a pig? did i exhibit the characteristics of pigs somehow? i certainly dont take offense to you calling me swine because they are fairly intelligent animals and actually pretty clean too. most people dont know that about them because they only see them in the terrible conditions they are forced to live in on farms.

i certainly would still love to hear some of your religious theories.


Apparently, metaphor is also beyond your grasp, or perhaps you simply wish to advocate for the Devil.



apparently qucik witted humorus sarcasm is beyond yours. and no i dont advocate for any mythical beings like trolls, goblins, santa clause, gods or devils. but seriously why wont you share your theories? my theory says its because you feel silly and your theories dont stand up to my previous arguments. but thats just my theory and i havent yet tested it using the scientific method. but as a christian (just my deduction i could be wrong) doesnt your god mandate that you must try to make people like me believe in him? i fear that you are making him angry and he may smite you as he did to the following....

(the intelligent reader is welcome to skip the pages of verses. scroll cown to the *)

The entire population of the earth at the time of Noah, except for eight survivors, in a flood. "And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth; and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark." Gen 7:23 [Jehovah, the first mass-murderer, starts His bloody career.]

Every inhabitant of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the surrounding plain, by "brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven." Gen 19:24 Lot and his family fled. [What about little innocent children in the city and around on the surrounding plain.]

All the first born of every family in Egypt, including children of those in dungeons and the successor to the throne of Egypt's Pharaoh, by God on the first Passover night. Ex 12:29 [Of those that are in prison and the first born of the cattle??????]

All the hosts of Pharaoh, including the captains of 600 chariots, who drown in the Red Sea while pursuing the Israelites. "... and the Lord overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea." Ex 14:27-28

Victims who perish in the conquest of seven nations in Canaan by the Jews under Gods guidance so that the Jews can occupy their lands as God had promised Abraham in Deut 7:1,2. The Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites were all destroyed, every man, woman and child and mercy was shown to none.

Amalek and his people, by the edge of the sword, because God wants to fight with Amalek from generation to generation . The Israelites win if Aaron helps Moses to hold up his hands. Ex 17:11,16

3,000 Israelites die at the hands of their brothers, the Levites, every man, their brothers and their companions. Ex. 32:27

Rulers of Israel, eleven in number after spying for forty days that wouldn't invade the Promised Land are killed by a plague. Num. 14:37

250 Levite princes of the Jews who challenged the leadership of Moses. When Moses points out the injustice of killing the whole congregation God relents briefly, then swallows up two of the princes, "their wives, sons and little children", then sent a fire to consume the remaining princes. Num. 16:1-40

14,700 people die by plague who protest to Moses about the prior killing of the 250 princes. Aaron makes an atonement to stop the plague. Num 16:41-49

The Canaanites at Hormah, utterly destroyed, every man woman and child, by God at the request of the Jews. Num 21:3 The Amorites at Hesbon, Israel "took all these cities". Moses sums up the slaughter: "We... utterly destroyed the men and the women and the little ones." Num 21:25 and Deut 2:34

All the sons and subjects of Og, about whom the Lord said to Moses: "Fear him (the king of Bashan) not, for I have delivered him into thy hand." None was left alive. Num 21:34-35
24,000 Israelites who cohabitated with Moabite women and worshiped Baal. "And the Lord said to Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun..." Num 25:4,9

All the males and the kings of the Middianites, because they worshiped idols, and all their wives and male children were sold into slavery. "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, vex the Midianites, and smite them." Num 25:16-17 and Num 31:7-8

The subjects of two kingdoms on the east side of the Jordan, in order that Reuben and Gad might seize the land for their own as a gift from God. Num 32

The Ammonites, decimated by the Lord so that Lot might possess their land. Deut 2:19-21

The Horims, slain by God in order that Esau might take their land. Deut 2:22

All the citizens of Jericho, except for a whore and her family. "And they utterly destroyed all in the city, man and woman, young and old, and ox... with the edge of the sword." Josh 6 "They" make a grisly game of it , using the superstitious number 7 popular in the Bible.

12,000 men, women and children die in a treacherous ambush conceived and directed by God. Joshua, with the usual mindless hocus-pocus, holds out his spear until all the inhabitants are dead. The city was then burned. Afterwards Joshua builds an altar and offers thanks to God. Josh 8:1-30

All the people of Makkedah, and their king hanged, by Joshua. Joshua 10:28

All the people of Libnah. Not a soul remained. Joshua 10:29-30

All the people of Gezer, with none remaining, are killed. Josh 10:33

All the people of Eglon, none remaining, are killed. Joshua 10:34-35

All the people of Hebron, "All the cities and souls that were in them". Joshua 10:36-37

All the inhabitants of the country of the hills, and the south of the vale, and the springs and their kings, he left none remaining but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40

The inhabitants of Gaza, Askerlon, and Ekron, killed by Judah and Caleb. Judges 1:18-19

10,000 Moabites, killed by the Israelites. Judges 3:29

10,000 Perizzites and Canaanites die at the hand of Judah and Simeon. Judges 1:4

120,000 Midianites die by the hands of Gideons three hundred men. Judges 8:10

50,070 people of Bethshemesh, struck dead by God because a few of them looked at/into the Ark carrying the stone tablets. 1st Samuel 6:19

70,000 victims die of a pestilence sent by God because David took a census. 11 Sam 24:15
Although Adam and Eve have no sense of right and wrong when they eat of the Tree of Knowledge, God accuses them of sinning and tosses them out of their home. Prejudging the human race he then decrees that all shall suffer for this "sin" by returning to the dust from which Adam was made. The Christian God curses women with painful birth. Gen 3

Cain kills Abel because God is partial to altar sacrifices, preferring animals to grain. Gen 4

At the time of the Flood, a disaster not uncommon to the tradition of other religions, Noah, an imbiber, and his family are the only persons deemed righteous enough to be saved from drowning. All others, including pregnant women and children, are given no opportunity to survive the rising waters. Gen 7,8

Again attributing sin to innocents God fails to find even 10 persons, or embryos in any stage of gestation, saintly enough to escape the fire and brimstone
God turns Lots wife into a pillar of salt when she looks back in horror at what is happening to her friends and neighbors. Gen 19

Abraham is certainly willing to do what ever the Lord demands of him, even when God orders him to kill his son. But all turns out Ok when an angel yells really loud to Abraham that it was just a test to see how much he loved God. Isaac is very lucky indeed. Abraham may have been near deaf at his age and the Angel was calling long distance from heaven. Gen 22

When Sarah gets jealous and insists, proven Abraham consigns Hagar and Ishmael to the deserts to die. Gen 21

Pharaoh orders all midwifes to strangle new born Jewish children. Of course they refused. Pharaoh then orders them to throw the babies into the river. Ex 1:18,22

Moses kills an Egyptian deliberately for beating an Israelite. Ex 2:12
He then becomes God's Lawgiver. One of his commandments straight from God is thou shalt not kill

God tries to kill Moses, because his son by a Middianite woman is not circumcised. His wife, angered, circumcises the boy with a sharp rock and throws the foreskin at Moses's feet. God then lets Moses off the hook. Ex 4:24-26

After first purposely hardening Pharaoh's heart so that he will not see the Israelites free, God, through the black magic of Aarons rod, visits ten terrible plagues upon the unsuspecting Egyptians. Ex 7-11

The needless, brutal slaughter of the Passover night is the intended result of another hardening of Pharaohs heart by an egotistical maniacal God who wishes to parade his power. Ex 12:29

More heart hardening by God causes Pharaoh to chase the Israelites into the Red Sea, where the soldiers die by drowning. Ex 14:28

For "offering strange fire before the Lord", two sons of Aaron, priests of the tabernacle, are struck dead. Lev 10:1-2

A blasphemer curses the name of God in the wilderness camp, and God orders him stoned to death: "And he children of Israel did as the Lord commanded Moses. Lev 24:23

Israelites who complain, with good reason, in the desert, are burned with fire by God in the uttermost parts of the camp. Num 11:1

Seeing that the Jews are dissatisfied on their journey to the Promised Land because they have no flesh to eat as they had in Egypt, God typically loses his temper again and in a childish way sends a vast excess of quail, enough to cover the ground a days travel in each direction and they stack up to a height of more than 3 feet. As the people started to eat the fruits of their labor "God smote them with a very great plague." Num 11:31-33

The Israelites are forced to wander for 40 years in the desert so that the older people would die. Num 14

A man caught picking up sticks on the Sabbath is ordered by God to be put to death, and the wandering tribes comply. Num15:35-36

Challenge of the authority of Moses by anyone always brought out the worse in God, and he buries alive the wives and children of the two princes who oppose Moses. Num 16:32-35

After striving to reach the Promised Land for forty years, Moses and Aaron are denied entry because Moses had struck a rock in anger to obtain water. Moses is allowed to look at it once though just before he dies. Num 20:11-12 and Deut 34

God turns Miraim into a leper after she criticizes Moses for marring an Ethiopian woman. Such unions were contrary to Jewish custom and also disapproved of by God for everyone except Moses. Num 12:10

*********

man i cant understand why people think hes such a nice guy. id be pissed off if he moved in next to me. i certainly wouldnt want to woship him. id rather worship saddam hussein or george bush. at least those two idiots havent ordered the murder or torture of as many people. theyre dowright saints compared to the god of the christians. oh wait...dont they both make claims to be doing their respective gods work? its really beginging to all come together.......im seeing a pattern here.


I had thought you had been joking but you said "nope ive been quite serious." Are you not a man of your word? You are obviously a man of some passion but I am not impressed with your sincerity. I'll squander my time no more in this senseless dialogue.

the heart of my argument is very serious. there is humor within my arguments but i find that the same mental blockage that leads people to believe in mythology would also prevent them from finding the humor. im sorry you feel your are squandering your time. perhaps if you had given some sort of evidence for your beliefs then you wouldnt feel that way. on the other hand, if you did possess some evidence for your belief then that would easily prove me wrong and im guessing that by now you would love to.

p.s. i am a person of my word. i like to be nice to people and do the morally right thing because its good for individuals and society. i dont feel the need to be good just because some people think there is a carpenter that lived more than two thousand years ago waving his scolding finger at me to be good or he will tell his daddy to lock me in hell to be tortured forever and ever.....as buzz lightyear liked to say "to infinity.....and beyond!!!!"


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